The Rainbow House - Casa Acozamalotl
A podcast from the borderland of spirituality, race, identity, and community, the Rainbow House highlights the voices of mixed race and minority people who choose a spiritual path other than Christianity or generic spirituality. Walk with those of us who are looking at our heritage and hoping to craft healing, fight injustice, and honor our ancestors and ourselves!
The Rainbow House - Casa Acozamalotl
Osea - NY Bruja & Activist (Part 2)
Part 2 of my conversation with Osea! In this conversation, we continue our exploration of the complexities of identity, spirituality, and cultural practices. Osea shares her journey of self-identification as a bruja and a Palo priestess, navigating the intersections of her Mexican heritage, Catholic upbringing, and the rich tapestry of ancestral practices they encompass. We discuss syncretism, engaging with closed traditions, and the importance of holistic healing practices that honor cultural roots. We discuss the role of the dead, spiritual warfare, and racism in magical systems. Join us!
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00:00 - Cultural Appropriation and Spiritual Practices
01:17 - The Impact of Western Medicine on Traditional Healing
05:10 - The Role of Touch and Healing in Community
21:30 - Reconnecting with Ancestral Practices
22:38 - Brujeria vs. Curanderismo
25:28 - Activism and Brujeria
32:20 - Palo
40:20 - Spiritual warfare and personal conviction
This is Bernadette from the future, and I just want to say that I actually had another segment recorded that went in depth about Ostea's Catholicism and the differences between Mexican Roman Catholicism and American Roman Catholicism, and more about how that identity evolved, but I seem to have lost it. So we're just going to continue with the next two installments. Please enjoy this second installment with Osea touching more about her spirituality and activism, the importance of clarity and understanding the cost associated when you engage in brujeria and also the role of brujeria for marginalized and oppressed communities. So enjoy and thank you once again for joining the Rainbow House. I want to say again thank you so much for making time for this. It's really been a pleasure talking about all this with you. And I did a little poll in preparation for our conversation. And this one of the same cards came up as our first time, who is uh Chico Mekwat, who's the provider of sustenance. And then I also got Mikteka Siwat and Miklan de Kutli. The Lord and the Lady of the Underworld.
SPEAKER_00:Which, if you remember, I was like, that's who I'm expecting.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, you said they should show up. And I think what's nice is my first poll was had Olin movement. So we're moving toward the Lord and the Lady of the Underworld in our conversation. And we also have the Lady of Plenty, maybe plenty of ideas, plenty of sharing, plenty of healing, plenty of disruption, and change. Future Bernadette breaking in again just to explain that I have a Jade, the an Oracle deck called the Jade Oracle, Deities and Symbols of Ancient Mexico. It's similar to a tarot card deck, but a little bit different. So those are the cards that I'm referring to, and prior to our interviews, both times, or I did a pull, a shuffle through the cards to see what came up. So just a little note that if you're interested, I will put the link to the deck in the show notes, and uh that's to provide a little bit more context about what I'm talking about here. So I thought for this one, I mean, we'll probably go all over the place because that's just how we are, but I thought for our conversation today we could just talk a little bit more about your spiritual role and your spiritual life. I know that now you have the bruja aspect, you have the your curandera. And so if you could just talk about the different aspects of your spirituality, what does being a curandera entail? But let's start first with just like pantheons and kind of like opening with that. Like how you moved on maybe from Celtic deities to more and what that looks like for you.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. There's this great expression in Spanish that I think helps explain certain things in this regard. So it's la sangre lama, right? It's like the blood calls. It refers to ways in which for many of us that feel called to these different paths, these caminos, a lot of times it gets connected back to your DNA, your ancestry. And if you think of your your existence in space is part of a lineage, and that lineage goes forwards and backwards and sideways in time. So I'm gonna drop a little bit of like quantum physics into this conversation. If everything is existing right now, then I am also what my descendants are. So I am also what my children are, I am also what you know my grandchildren are. Like I am part of a greater connection to my ancestors, I'm also part of a greater connection to the family that becomes mine right now in what we perceive in linear time as our future, but they're all with me, they're always with me. So then it starts to make a bit of sense as to like why certain lineages or pathways call to us. So I have a mixed background, I do have Celtic background, I do have Mesoamerican background, and you know, kind of moving forward in time, I also have Afro-Caribbean background, which is an interesting consideration when I then go and explain like what this all is. A part of being a bruja and a part of being a curandera is sometimes you experience time in a way that's maybe very different than linear time, right? Where you start to see your and others, what we perceive as future, as almost like right now. You start to see what's coming, what's likely, what, and you live it like sometimes in visions, dreams, but also visions, you live an experience of going, like, oh, this is me, and this is my life, and this is what I am, and this is what I'm going to be. And so I've had experiences like that my whole life, and it doesn't mean that I I guess had to commit to going down that path, but it became increasingly evident to me more than 20 years ago what was what was on its way, which is a long time to be able to start, you know, unfurling what this kind of practice means. So I grew up already at home with herbs and spiritual practices that would be a part of what we call curanderismo, right? So curanderismo brings together it's a syncretized belief system that relates to healing, it has syncretized beliefs with Catholicism. Um, I've also kind of found that it's in Mexico a safer term than calling yourself a bruja, right? Like curanderos and curanderas are well respected as healers. Sometimes they're an even better alternative to going to a hospital or seeing doctors because the thought is that you know, curanderos and curanderas are going to be able to treat things that a hospital or traditional medical practice may not have a holistic lens on, right? So there is a belief within curanderismo that these imbalances that people are experiencing that present themselves as illness or present themselves as being unwell, they could have a host of causes. Yes, could they be medical imbalances in the body? Sure, absolutely. Could they also have metaphysical causes? That too. When I say metaphysical, you know, mind, body, spirit, and could also go down the realm of like curses, hexes, jealousies, right? Like what people call maleoko. You know, mylohaires, there's lots of different beliefs in curanderismo basically about how energy is flowing into the body, mind, spirit space that is us incorporated. And so the curanderismo practices aim to bring that back into balance. And that could be through herbs, that could be through massage, right? There are sobaderas that their their focus is on um massaging and like moving um musculoskeletal tissue right into alignment to help deal with some of these imbalances. Um parteras focus on birth, what in like regular Western medicine you want to call a midwife. Like parteras are a huge part of preparing um people's bodies for birth, right? And even after birth.
SPEAKER_01:And like caring, right?
SPEAKER_00:Platticas, yeah, platicas. So platicas are ways of using speech, conversation again, to bring balance, to bring release, which if you've ever been to therapy, you're like, oh, that sounds familiar. But it's it's a way to release what we tend to hold in the body and what we tend to hold in spirit that harms us, is to release that in healthier ways, like uh de-escalation, like a conflict resolution when therapy, you're like, Oh, yeah, you know, we do this, right? In in Western medicine, and then pay like$200 an hour. Okay, well, Coranderismo doesn't really gatekeep that and say, like, oh man, you had to go find some other person and then pay them for 45 you know minutes a week to listen to you talk about your problems. You can do that in community, you can heal and resolve some of these issues without having to step outside of what your miss.
SPEAKER_01:So, quick question. So, some of what I've experienced in my own life, I thought this was just me being a perceptive person. Like sometimes you can look at a child's face or an adult's face, and you get a flash of what they're gonna look like as an adult, or in an adult's face, in a situation, you're like, oh, I see the child in you. Right? And you it's not like a seeing, it's just like a it's a it's a momentary insight into the hurt or the joy or the you know, just the the parts of that person that have kind of that are connected through time. And then also, as you know, we talked about it. I've done massage my whole life, right? I'm not a trained massage therapist, but I've been told by multiple people that I'm much better than a trained massage therapist. And one of the things that was interesting to me is I always thought of it as like what I was doing, one of my cousins always asked me, they're like, Oh, can you like I just it feels so good when you massage? I'm like, sure. And then they got my aunt to uh they were they kept urging my aunt. And I love my aunt very much, but she's a very, very private person. And so I actually don't know very much about her personal life at all. And I distinctly remember she sat down and she was finally, she said, Oh, okay, sure. And she sat down in front of me, and I put my hands on her, and I just instantly was like, This is not, I'm not welcome. Like, I can't, there's this will just feel like any other sort of massage. I can't go in. There's no welcome in. And that was the first time that I had ever realized that there were some people who were closed off and that it wasn't about just the massage, that I could massage their muscles and it would be fine, but that there was a very strong barrier, that they were just not going to let me in in some other way. And that was the first time I ever felt like, oh, maybe something I'm doing is not just muscles.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Is it like that? Is that kind of a thing?
SPEAKER_00:And then some. So I'll give you the sort of the gamut of like what I've experienced, you know, doing healing work, right, with folks. Is sure you can intersect their energy and hit a wall. You can also hit what feels like tar, what feels like very, very sticky, dark tar. I tend to associate that with cancers, right? Like when people are are dealing with tumors or cancers, like sometimes I'll connect into their energy, and I'm like, oh boy. Um, because I'll feel it like the way that it's attacking their system from the inside. Sometimes what I'll hit is trauma and rage and anger. And you know, depending on what that was, it could be rooted in different places, it could be all the way at the root. What you know people describe as chakras, depending on how long ago something happened and how impactful it was on them. Like if it's something that goes way back to childhood, sometimes I'll hit that explosion um around what people call the sacral chakra. But maybe it's emotional and it's more something from adulthood, and that might be more in like the heart areas. So I've I've definitely worked with people energetically in like healing sessions and settings, just practicing a sequandera, not also doing bruhia, like just from like the healing or energy healing side, and I've hit all different kinds of energetic responses in and around the body. And there is an aspect of how safe somebody feels and how willing they are to open themselves. Like you're saying, some people really just are are hesitant or afraid, or you know, maybe they associate it with something like deep-seated guilt, they think it might be evil, and so they just like close off to it, and all they want, like you're mentioning, is a massage, which I'm definitely not the person for that job because I don't tend to touch people. I think that's meaningful for me to mention is that for me doing like sobalera type things, I tend to restrict that to my family or very, very close people to me to do that kind of like you know, touch-related energetic exchange, which is me trying to be careful and respectful with like everything I bring, all of the energies and all of the things that I bring. Me doing touch is could be really intense for somebody. So I tend to hover above them. Like what people associate with like Reiki practice, where you're like not touching the body, you're generally speaking, your hands or whatever else use if you use eyes or mouth, like you're you're in physical proximity to the person, but you're not touching them, they might start faking, like they might have an emotional explosion. Like when you're moving energy in the body, or you're even touching on where energy might be, it can be really impactful for the person. And that doesn't mean don't release it, that doesn't mean don't touch it. It just means you know, recognize what it is that you're doing. If you want something removed, that pathway might not always be easy to do. When something becomes uncomfortable. I think that there should be consent and understanding in that process. Like, consent is everything, and explain to somebody, hey, when I read you, when I scan you, like here's some of the stuff that comes up. Can we touch it? Can we deal with it, right? Are you gonna be okay with that? Because everybody comes from different backgrounds, come from different life experiences, come from different nations in many cases. What might be really easy for one person who's like, oh my god, that's nothing. Like you're not even touching me, right? If they've gone through certain trauma in life, they might be like, oh, this is gonna be easy light work, right? And some other person might be keenly uncomfortable with you having your hands hovering over them. I've dealt with a little bit of every type of reaction to that gamut. So I think that what's really important in in that realm, in that aspect, is recognizing consent, um, encouraging people to be like, hey, let's let's move through this, like let's let's deal with it. Because a cancer metaphor is like if you've got a tumor and I just go, it's not gonna remove the tumor, you don't want just a little biopsy, you want that whole shit out and you want to heal afterwards. So recognizing in these practices to be honest, because sometimes the only way out is through. But making sure that somebody is is at the point of of consenting to it, because I think one of the older styles of this is they did not give a fuck. They were like, here's the curandera, here's the curandero, they're gonna do whatever you're gonna do, and then you're like, Oh my god, stuff is just happening, and then then people get scared, people freak out, and they get traumatized by the healing practice.
SPEAKER_01:That was something for real that happened in my family. I don't think people were traumatized, but I think they were very confused. So, like the kids would be brought in, and you know, they'd be like the curanderas here from Mexico. We our family had a very strong relationship with her, and she's gonna, you know, gonna give everyone kuras. And there was just like no context for what was happening. Right. And so they were like, Okay, so I wear this, and then that she's gonna do that, and then what that there was an egg, like what's happening? And if you like, I was there sometimes, but I wasn't like I never actually saw any of the rituals because I wasn't the focus of them. So I would be in the house with my little science fiction book being like, I don't know what's happening. And so I think that unfortunately, I think if there had been the ability for people to be more open and have more knowledge around what this is and why it's important, I think that they would have been more effective because it's kind of like if somebody just gives you a medical treatment, but they don't talk to you about why you're sick and what's happening and what this is gonna do for you. Maybe it'll work, right? But as we know, the placebo effect is very strong. If you know it's going to work, if you know it's supposed to be helpful, that can help boost the effects of even Western medication.
SPEAKER_00:I would go far beyond even. I think that people mistake the placebo effect as a as like a dummy outcome. And I'm like, no, the placebo effect is everything. You want to heal, you need to firmly believe in your healing. You want something to make a difference, you need to make that your whole reality. Somebody could practice the best, most fancy form of medicine on you. And if you have convinced yourself that you are not going to get better, your body is gonna block the benefits of whatever that treatment could have been. So to me, like the first place somebody needs to be at is be like, I firmly believe in my wellness, I firmly believe in my wholeness, I am whole, right? I am well, and holding that belief in whatever treatment you are exploring, I think is super, super important because otherwise you're using your own energy to shoot yourself in the foot, right? It benefits you zero to go into any type of healing or medical experience and be like, this shit isn't gonna work, right? Like it really is not helpful.
SPEAKER_01:Also, you can go in, as I experienced with a shaman and Bali, with a very jaded attitude that this shit is just for show and for money, and then you get your spirits ass kicked, like I did. So watch it when you think that you're being so cool and that you're making fun of all the people that do spiritual tourism, and then you go and you get your clock cleaned. Spiritually speaking, it's really self-shattering experience.
SPEAKER_00:I I I I enjoy I'm gonna say shout out to some of those folks out here in the metaphysical sphere. They have this fun phrase they call ego death, and I'm like, ow, you guys are so funny. I was like, yeah, there is no like maximum stage of of whatever they want to call ego death. It's all it's all different levels of awareness and self-awareness and experience of self. But those moments of release, whatever you want to call them, of releasing into the void, of releasing into what your experience is of learning from it and and not holding on to egotistical expectations. Yeah, no, I think that's all really healthy, I think that's all really helpful, you know. Uh, and coming out on the other side of that, growing, having a growth mindset. For some people, that does take being humbled. For other people, it might be that they're just more ready to accept and keep moving. But I think again, the more you frame yourself from a perspective of everything I'm doing right now is good for me, like everything that I am taking on right now in this spiritual experience, in this healing experience, and this guarandarismo experience, like this is medicine for me, I am well, I am growing towards better harmony with my body, with my spirit, with my mind. Like, all of that is a better place to start from for your well-being than I would say some of the alternatives, which I've also experienced, and like you said, results may vary on how much you get your butt kicked. Yeah. When you when you come at it with that approach, but the suffering part's kind of optional, you don't have to choose it. You can you can flow through it in a different way, right?
SPEAKER_01:But it's well, it's like being picked up by a river, you can just sort of relax back, or you can just like try to fight every second and you get knocked and turned upside down, right? It's not gonna be something. Do you so a couple minutes ago you made a distinction between brujeria and curanderismo, and so can you talk a little bit about for you what that distinction is between the two? Sure.
SPEAKER_00:The degree to which I'm moving with more spiritual allies and engaging in practices that would move beyond the gentler approaches, that's sort of what I'm categorizing and what I'm seeing right now is burujia. But I think of when I think of coranderismo, I'm thinking of something that is exclusively or more exclusively for healing, for remedying right situations. And I mean, can remedy some situations, but it can also it can also be war, it can also be a tataquieto, you know what I'm saying? Like it is not it is not as focused on just the healing per se, right? And I think that you know, one of my noticings and shifts from Western white witchcraft, whatever you want to call that is, is there was like this huge emphasis for some and like, oh my god, do no harm, like do no harm, don't, you know, only only white magic now is like I don't like that phrase also sounds mad racist, right? Because what are you implicating? You're implicating that the practices of Afro-Caribbean people are somehow dark, wrong, evil. We're just gonna you know erase the fact that people were um also enslaved and it was their response to being enslaved. Like, since when is you know resisting your oppressor dark or evil, right? If that didn't apply to you, if you didn't have that experience, who the fuck are you to say that no, no, no, you you should only use white light and sage on your oppressor? Fuck out of here. Fuck out of here. I'm sorry. Anything that moves towards balance against oppression, it's really easy for people to paint that as like, oh my god, but they're victims because people did witchcraft on them. I was like, those motherfuckers deserved it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I think I think that the the white light do no harm thing, I think that actually came from a misunderstanding and incorporation of karma. Because all of the like kind of white witchcraft, the Gardinarian stuff is an amalgamation of a lot of different mystery traditions that includes like a heavy amount of Hindu philosophy as they understood it, right? And this idea of karmic retribution, because when you start talking about karma, karma is very complicated, it's not as direct as people think. And so I think a lot of that comes from a misunderstanding of the principles of karma.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. I think sometimes, and this is sort of where my line of resistance has been, I tend to draw a lot of parallels between like Bruhiria and other practices and like activism, right? So there are people in activism that like they only want to do a protest that has been approved, that has a permit, and they will only walk on the sidewalk and like no bad words, guys, and like you know, we're gonna have pre-approved signs and we're only gonna march on the pre-approved route. And then there are others of us in the activism world that are like, wow, that sounds mad performative and really helpful to your oppressors, that you do nothing to make them uncomfortable. If anything, they're like, hey, we're your oppressors, and you can only color inside these lines and you can only use the you know the color green. And you're like, Yes, Matabas, I'm only gonna do what you told me to. How the fuck is that protest? If you don't disrupt, if you don't push back, if you don't push back on the harm that's being caused, on the oppression, or even on their right to have authority, right, in oppressive ways, when the fuck did that become protest? That's not protest. Protest is disruptive, right? Resistance is disruptive to the oppressor. So, you know, I I take that mentality back to the practices that I'm discussing. It's like, are there circumstances that I think 100% call for curranderismo? Yes. Are there circumstances that I think call for brujeria or like more intense brujeria? A thousand percent. Everything's gotta be with consent, though. I'm not gonna go start a process involving somebody else's life without their explicit consent and understanding about you know what the benefits and risks could be, right? What is involved along the way, and that make it very, very clear they can pull back consent at any point, right? Like this is not something that I need to be on a crusade on doing for them, right? I do, I do my own shit for me, I do my own shit for for my own, for my household, for my family. But if it's gonna involve somebody else, they should have, in my mind, a very clear understanding of what we're getting into and what could be a part and parcel of what that brings into being. And I think that's where it's like when you're talking about karmic restribution, you know, I'll give you an example. And Brujidia, don't go fucking searching for justice if you know that you've been on doing some dirt shit yourself, right? If you were doing dirty shit, and then you want to go after somebody for justice, well, and you want to go work with an entity that's focused on justice, and you were out here in these streets doing unjust things, maybe think on that before you go down that path. Because now you're accelerating how quickly the arc of justice also sweeps back towards you. So that's where I think the the consideration should be in terms of like you know, is it light? Is it dark? I'm like, uh-uh. It's balance, it's about balance, right? And so being mindful is what you're asking for something else the same that you would want asked for yourself. Do I want for you what I want for me? Like that, I think is a very reasonable question to ask yourself before entering into any type of stage of of burrujeria. Is it's not about you know, white this or dark that or black this or no, because that also gets into like a bunch of racial connotations that I think are super racist that are that are anti-black, right? Anti-indigenous. I go back to it's balance, it's fairness. So this is why I think when it comes to brujeria, it's like we're having a very different conversation, right? We're going from something that might feel like in curanderismo to be maybe a very purifying, very healing experience to like in brujeria. How far are you willing to go? How much justice are you willing to take back? Because in many situations, especially when people want to explore choosing Viru Khariria, sometimes I tell people, you don't need witchcraft, you need therapy. Like you really need to reflect on what were your choices, what were your actions, what were your words that led to said scenario that now you are looking for rukheria to go and resolve that. Now, in some situations, that might not be safe. So I'll give the example of domestic violence. Well, if the if the situation is DV, and I personally am not into like cops resolving things, then I'm not going to tell somebody, oh, but did you report it to police? No. And I can think of many scenarios where that would not be safe. If you're an immigrant right now, you probably want zero involvement with anything law enforcement because it could lead to your arrest, it could lead to your detention, even if you were the victim, it could lead to your immediate deportation because of the Lake and Riley Act. And I could go on. That could be like a whole other podcast. But the point is, I understand why in that situation, if somebody's dealing with DV, their next step might be like brujeria and not going to a cop. Right? Because they need to be safe, they need justice, they need protection. That's gonna be, and and that's gonna be a theoretically non-confrontational way to go about it because they could be putting themselves in danger trying to confront the person that is actively causing the harm, the violence, the abuse, etc. So, you know, Buruhiria is complex. You know, we tend to consult, at least in my in my pathway. So I'm a palera, right? We tend to consult always and first as to one, whether we can consult the person, right, and intervene. What's a palera? A palera, somebody who practices a form of palo. So palo is an Afro-Caribbean faith, it's a dipork faith.
SPEAKER_01:It's based out of sorry, I was like palo, you mean like stick? Like, yeah, you come, you're gonna get.
SPEAKER_00:Well, there's a reason why it's called palo because we work with trees, because we work with sacred trees among other things.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, this totally fits because I think I remember you exploring druidism. This is correct. So in between, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, how different parts of the world connections with the trees, sacred trees, and the abilities of sacred trees can be used for a whole host of things. Can they be used for healing? Sure. Can they be used for Tate Kieto? Absolutely. They have lots of different uses. So in Palo, we have many different trees that are worked, that branches from those trees or the trees themselves are part of the work of what we do. It's also it heavily involves the dead. Um, there are traditions that came out of the Congo, that when people were trafficked from the Congo, they were often trafficked up into West Africa, and then they were brought to Cuba. And so, depending on your Camino and Palo, there are different like lineages in Palo. There's Palo Mayombe, well, in Cuba, it was called like Palo Monte, there's palomayombe, palo briumba, um paloquimbisa. There are a lot of different branches in Palo. And so the branches vary in terms of like do they syncretise more beliefs? Do they involve Ocha, which is Yudua beliefs and practices that people in our side of the ocean associate with santeria? Right? So there are branches of Palo that incorporate elements of Ocha, incorporate elements of Christianity, incorporate elements of voodoo, incorporate elements of espiritismo, and in one branch incorporate elements of Awakua, a secret society that was all black in Cuba. Um, and there are some that just more specifically are reglacongo that are more centrically based in the the spiritual practices of the people from the Congo, right? So I practice one of those, one of those branches that would make me a palera. And so what I'm saying to you is like in my particular tradition, for me to intervene and get involved with somebody, you know, for the purpose of Rukeria, first I consult as to whether I can work with them, like whether this is a good idea, whether this is a good fit. And then, you know, there's a consultation about what's going on, which you know, if we were to apply that kind of like to Guranderismo practices, is like that's kind of like the diagnosis of going, okay, well, or just I mean, if you're a Western medical practitioner, you have a consultation.
SPEAKER_01:You talk to the person about what's happening.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. And so the the thing about Palo is you're you're doing energetic exchange just by consulting because you're asking the entities that you work with to help guide your scope and understanding of a person's situation, right? So there has to be energetic exchange given for you to do that. That can be money, some people ask for other things depending on what their needs are. Some people might just ask for an energetic exchange that's given to the spirits that they work with. It doesn't have to be money, but let's say it often is. And that's just to to, like I said, do a consultation to see what what's going on. Some of us in the Palo world, just by talking to somebody, our muertos will speak to us. This is a longer story about palo, but we are we'll say very closely bonded with the dead that we work with, and so sometimes our muertos will just actively go, hey, this is what's going on, right? We'll start to see it and hear it and understand it without even going through the formal process of consultation. I mean, I guess it's up to each palero as to whether they want to speak on what they see and they hear, even without being in a formal setting of consulta, because it'll happen anyways, even when we don't mean for it to, right? Like we'll walk into situations and we'll become immediately aware of stuff that's going on with people that in some cases maybe they would rather not reveal, or maybe they're not even aware of.
SPEAKER_01:I have a girlfriend who is very cautious about when and how she enters graveyards.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because she says it's very loud.
SPEAKER_00:Very it can be, you know. And and I think people also in the West think that the dead only stick around in graveyards, and uh no, they're all over the place.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, she does get interrupted in other places as well. But I think she says graveyards are particularly noisy.
SPEAKER_00:They can be, they can be. Um, hospitals are super noisy, hospitals are super duper noisy. Any type of complex where people are harmed, tortured, interrogated, so that would be like prisons and jails, like also just kind of depends. But there's also people that they just have like their own familial dead or their own like friendly dead, or somebody's put on what on them, not so friendly, that they're carrying around on their back, on their shoulders. So the world of the dead is a really complex thing to get into. Like I said, that could that could be like a whole other conversation. But the point is is that I personally proceed very cautiously with like, okay, every every step of this along the way is there's gotta be consent. I should not be trauma blasting somebody with something that I become aware of just by looking at them, and just because I have the ability to like listen or hear something very personal and private about their life. You know, I'm a big believer again, and consent that they want that information. Um, they want to do energetic exchange for it, but they don't have to. That's totally fine. And then what will come up is usually a okay, well, here's some viable pathways to then change whatever those circumstances are that are not ideal, right? Because usually what comes up in a consulta is what might be behind the problem or problems that somebody is dealing with, the entities that I work with um may ask for certain things, and that's that kind of is what comes out of the consulta. It's like, okay, well, what do you want in exchange to help resolve this scenario? And Walo is like now, it's like right now, right? You know, and each type of ruggeria works differently. There are types of rugiria where you are giving offerings and you're asking for things, and it's not super different than like people lighting candles for Catholic saints. You know what I mean? Like you're asking for intercession, you're giving an offering, you're asking for there to be change in that situation. It may or may not come. And there are forms of ruggeria where you're negotiating with an entity, and they may take the negotiation and accept it, and it may blow up in your face, right? Like rukeriya is not a monolith. Each pantheon, each type of entity that you work with, whether you allow for those entities to mount you or not, because there's like, for example, the branch of a speedy thesmal where people will bring down different entities and then like host them in their bodies, like that could be very different than maybe something that I might be doing. But a belief that we do have in Philo is that things happen quickly. So once you you consent to, like, yeah, I'm gonna do this thing, I'm gonna give this in exchange, things tend to move very quickly because the cost of what something may be to resolve, not everybody's ready for that price. I don't know if you've ever read the short story The Monkey's Paw, where this guy really wants the money for something to come out of it, and then there's a tragic accident that affects his son.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and there's there's a lot of cautionary tales like that, like the picture of Dorian Gray, the monkey's paw. So there's little hints of that in popular culture.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that that is a very real way to consider how some types of ruhiria can work. Is it depending on what you're asking for, depending on the intensity, depending on the level of energy that it's going to require to shift something to the direction that you want it to go in, to the outcome that you want, the ask could be very, very high. Um, and it could the the the term that we use is secar. It could really dry you out. It could dry out the practitioner or practitioners that are attempting to do that work on your behalf. So, you know, there should always, in my mind, be a consideration of like, is the cost worth it? Is the price worth it? I personally prefer only to work on the side of things that I'm really not about causing harm to innocent people. One, I'm absolutely patently against any harm to minors or children. I don't like doing anything that's gonna cause harm to innocent people, to third parties, collateral damage. I don't like any of that. I personally try to operate with a conscience, right? And be careful and considerate in what comes up in consultation and in sort of deep reflection of like, okay, if I go down this road, it's war. If I go down this road, it's gonna impact this person really profoundly. They could touch whatever is most precious to them, right? That's how some of this works. So to me, it's like you're putting the onus of your work on having a conscience or not, and deciding for yourself how willing you are, how far you're willing to go to bring an outcome to reality. Because anything is possible, everything has a cost. But if you have been deep in the practice of oppressing and harming people, I am not of the belief that you get to go scot-free. That everybody needs to have kid gloves with you when you have been part of trafficking and harming and abusing and oppressing people, right? Like I just it I don't share the belief that you know kid gloves should be for you. There are other belief systems that exist in the world that do think that everybody deserves, you know, forgiveness and gentleness, no matter what they do to others. I'm not here to say that that's not right. That's people's beliefs. I, you know, like I try to be respectful as much as possible, that there are plenty of faiths and practices in the world that have a very like turn the other cheek and then some, right? Forgive and then some. And I go, if that is what brings you closer to the divine, if that is what brings you closer to enlightenment, if that is what brings you closer to oneness, that is beautiful. And you should keep doing that.
SPEAKER_01:As long as you're actually turning the other cheek, right? And being gentle, which not a lot of that going on in the world right now. But then again, are they really living the faith that they profess? And I would say 95% of them know.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe. I mean, I I guess I'm just willing to admit I'm a little more spiritual gangster about shit. Where I'm like, I was like, I am here for all the people that are gentle and kind and forgiving. And I respect and protect their right to do that, but knuck if you buck. Like if you're if you're coming for any of these innocent people that are not striking back at you, that are not causing you harm, and you know, you're just gonna keep on harming, and you're just gonna keep on oppressing, you're just gonna keep on abusing.
SPEAKER_01:I mean Well, that's how and that's how bullies and that's how dictators stay in power, is people don't stand up. Right. They're afraid and they hunker down and they try and keep quiet. And I understand why, you know. I do, I have young children, and so I have to make the calculation of how much I want to be involved and speaking out and speaking up and what that means for my children, and when it's safe, and when it, you know, how comfortable I am with what could happen, because I think that things are not moving in a very positive direction.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And so I think that as a mom, I am one step even beyond that in the scale of me being like, I want my children to grow up on the world where they see that mom absolutely fought back.
SPEAKER_01:And that's the thing, right? In five years, in ten years, in 15 years, I don't want them to say, What did you do? And I said, Well, I stayed safe. And that's what I did. I stayed quiet and I kept my head down and I didn't say anything.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. Listen, I'm I'm pretty sure it's not lost upon my family right now, the type of person I am, the best of all the things right now. But I'd say for me, that that legacy of what I chose and how I chose to live, and again, where that intersecting is also marked with you know, my pathways in activism, my pathways in Buddhitiya, like, yeah, no, hell yeah, I want my kids to know. Hell yeah, I want my grandkids to know. This is what I was about. That we do not stay silent in the face of oppression, we do not stay actionless in the face of oppression. And maybe not everybody is called to that, and that's okay. But for those of us that are capable, for those that are willing, like I said, mount up and not be fearful and not give into the hopelessness and the helplessness that things cannot change, right? I think that that for me personally is a huge comfort in embrujeria, in that I don't need to be the wealthiest person, I don't need to be a senator, I don't need to be a CEO, I don't need to be any of the things that we tend to associate with influence and power. I can be exactly what I am, and that is plenty. When you start to understand how these worlds work, you start to understand how these practices work, like, listen, we are plenty to go and deal with. And the world doesn't often know how to stop us, which is really nice, right? Because some of these practices have become closed and hidden over the years, and also people discount them and they don't think that they're real. I'm like, keep on believing that they're not real. That is fine by me. I do not need to be the missionary of all things brujeria to convince you of what we can do. It's actually better for me if you don't think we can do anything, because then you don't know how to stop it. So just keep on living in that blissful ignorance that works for me.
SPEAKER_01:This week, the week I am recording, saw an escalation of community disappearances, the blatant violations of human rights, and increasing public corruption. Brown folks of all immigration statuses, citizens or not, undocumented or not, are being hunted while the Trump administration flies in 200,000 white South Africans as refugees. Make no mistake, white nationalism is the agenda and the purpose to what is happening. Fortifying ourselves spiritually and being ready to speak truth to power is necessary when we have the Gestapo loose on the streets. Keep yourself safe and remember that the power of the people is greater than the people in power.
